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 Help regarding pionners

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Thalesin



Nombre de messages : 6
Date d'inscription : 30/08/2008

MessageSujet: Bonjour de l'autre côté de l'océan   Sam 30 Aoû - 0:35

Pardon moi, Je suis Amercian. Je suis une ligne française re-enactor pour le 13ème Burbonnais et je recherche de l'information au sujet du XVIIIème siècle Sapeurs.

L'image du pionnier britannique est très impressionnante et instructive. Il semble y a une page de revêtement qui n'était pas une partie du balayage et je voudrais beaucoup le voir si possible.

J'espère qu'il pourrait aide dans ma propre recherche dans l'impression de Sapeur pour mon ère car c'est seulement 12 ans de différence.

Veuillez pardonner mon français, j'emploie un programme de traducteur mais peux comprendre français avec de l'aide.

N'importe quelle aide serait considérablement appréciée !

Votre domestique
James R. Hunt
Pvt Sapeur
13th Burbonnais
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eugene
3rd East Kent Buffs
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Nombre de messages : 156
Age : 35
Localisation : Farbland entre une glacière est un camping car
Date d'inscription : 11/09/2007

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Lun 1 Sep - 21:40

Don't bother with the translator ask your questions in english, we'll answer as best we can.

Laisse tomber le traducteur, pose tes questions en anglais. flower
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Thalesin



Nombre de messages : 6
Date d'inscription : 30/08/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Mar 2 Sep - 13:40

eugene a écrit:
Don't bother with the translator ask your questions in english, we'll answer as best we can.

Laisse tomber le traducteur, pose tes questions en anglais. flower


Thank you for responding. I am very thankful for any information I can get my hands on, as info seems to be difficult to obtain.

First off the Big picture on the first page showing the Pioneer and all his equipment, there appears to be a facing page not scanned. Could I get a copy of that scan.

Second that comes right to mind and has been of some debate is the presence of facial hair of Sapeurs/Pioneers of the period of American War of Independence. I was wondering if anyone can cite source for the 1780 period? I know the period you are portraying is about a decade later. But hoping for some help

Thank you again
your servent
James R. Hunt
Pvt. Sapeur
13th Burbonnais
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eugene
3rd East Kent Buffs
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Nombre de messages : 156
Age : 35
Localisation : Farbland entre une glacière est un camping car
Date d'inscription : 11/09/2007

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Mar 2 Sep - 14:45

No there is only this page.
As for the American Revolution period I can say that the beard is worn in the early 19th century period when there were no major changes from the American Revolution.

I will research some info though.

Are you interested in French sapeurs or british pioneers?
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Thalesin



Nombre de messages : 6
Date d'inscription : 30/08/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Mar 2 Sep - 21:17

eugene a écrit:
No there is only this page.
As for the American Revolution period I can say that the beard is worn in the early 19th century period when there were no major changes from the American Revolution.

I will research some info though.

Are you interested in French sapeurs or british pioneers?

French Sapeurs, I am with French Line and and American Continental Line.

I have a good sized document from Dr Robert Seigle of the US who has done exhaustive research on French Army in North America. It is in French and I am translating slowly but it does lack the direct regulations or Primary documentation on facial hair.
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eugene
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Nombre de messages : 156
Age : 35
Localisation : Farbland entre une glacière est un camping car
Date d'inscription : 11/09/2007

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Mer 3 Sep - 20:31

Here is what I have so far:

French sapeurs appear officially in 1710 under the name"porte outils".
The various reglementations from 1749, 1767 1771 and so on describe the equipment they carried but do not mention a beard.

There is a contemporary drawing of a Garde de sConsuls Sapeurs :1800 with a full beard.
Since the Garde des Consuls came directly from the Directoire, it can be assumed the Revolutionnary Sapeur wore a beard.
So that brings us to 1789.

There is an official Decret under the Empire that explicitly forbids civilians to carry moustaches or a beard and limits those to elite troops (gendarmes, grenadiers...). But that is a while after your period.

The wearing of the beard came from the pioneer (english) / Sapeur(french) 's mission of clearing the road, thus he had no time to shave.

Has you see here, the 1750s grenadier already wore moustaches, it could be assumed the sapeur also wore a beard in those days.Since the beard like the moustache is a distinction amongst the common soldier.




I had that the 1773 ordonnance describes how the hair and moustache should be kept:
Citation :
Art. 14. Défense de cirer les moustaches. Les cheveux ne seront plus tressés, mais liés en une queue qui aura 12 à 14 pouces de long. Ils seront coupés courts dessus la tète. Les cheveux des faces seront arrangés pour former une seule boucle, assujettis par une lame de plomb, ils descendront à 4 lignes au-dessus du bout de l'oreille. Les cheveux seront poudrés seulement les jours de service. Le chapeau enfoncé jusqu'au sourcil droit, la corne du devant placée au-dessus du sourcil gauche découvert de 1 pouce, et maintenue toujours dans le même pli. Le col uni, remonté le plus possible et le rabat bien blanc. Boutonner les deux premiers crochets du devant de l'habit. On ne doit plus voir les manches de la chemise, la veste boutonnée dans toute la longueur. Les vestes des caporaux et soldats auront de petits parements et les marques du grade y seront apposées.
*
This ordonnance makes no mention of a beard.


But I have not yet found any image of a 18th century sapeur with a full beard... I'll keep looking.
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Thalesin



Nombre de messages : 6
Date d'inscription : 30/08/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Jeu 4 Sep - 12:33

That is where I am at myself pretty much. It is an on going argument among the 18th century Re0enactors in the US about facial hair. A few of the more vocal hardcore insist that beards for the Grenadiers and Sapeurs did not exist. Documentation from after 1781 is no good cause they say regs where different then.

Now I do have a pic of Layfette and his Men (in grenadier hats) that appear to all have light beards. It is from the New York Public Library but lacks any proper documentation.
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eugene
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MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Jeu 4 Sep - 16:07

On another note it is worth mentioning that the word moustache is used sometimes to describe a all range of facial hair from the goatee to the moustachio. It is found in Memoirs where the word moustache is used to describe something we would call a beard.

On the other hand the sapeur/sapeur sous offiicer as a rank isn't recognized on the french regimental payroll and therefore it can be assumed he wore the same facial hair as his comrades. Whereas he is distinguished in the 1800 period and wears clearly a different facial hair from the troop.
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gregoire
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Nombre de messages : 55
Age : 46
Localisation : paris
Date d'inscription : 04/09/2006

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Jeu 4 Sep - 18:23

I have read again the Reglement provisionnel pour le service de l'infantrie en campagne printed in 1744 so it is much earlier and there is no trace of sapeur or anything allowing t he bearb
You can try to have a look at picture from the RMN
the grenadier are clearly pictured with mustach
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Thalesin



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Date d'inscription : 30/08/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Ven 5 Sep - 0:45

Yes I had been suspecting that in my research as well. A beard would be defined as a full bit of facial hair covering all the way to the lower chin. Goatee had its own grouping closer to the moustache.

Sapeur was not paid in any additional salary for his duties. Thus I have suspected this led into the bending of the regulations afforded them. The beard feature is claimed by 1800 to be traditional. Tradition had to begin somewhere.

Here is the pic I was referring too
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v346/Thalesin/?action=view&current=Beard3.jpg




eugene a écrit:
On another note it is worth mentioning that the word moustache is used sometimes to describe a all range of facial hair from the goatee to the moustachio. It is found in Memoirs where the word moustache is used to describe something we would call a beard.

On the other hand the sapeur/sapeur sous offiicer as a rank isn't recognized on the french regimental payroll and therefore it can be assumed he wore the same facial hair as his comrades. Whereas he is distinguished in the 1800 period and wears clearly a different facial hair from the troop.
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Thalesin



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Date d'inscription : 30/08/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Ven 5 Sep - 0:54

gregoire a écrit:
I have read again the Reglement provisionnel pour le service de l'infantrie en campagne printed in 1744 so it is much earlier and there is no trace of sapeur or anything allowing t he bearb
You can try to have a look at picture from the RMN
the grenadier are clearly pictured with mustach

The packet of information I have from Dr Selig notes that the facial hair was done against general regulation. Grenadiers, Chausseurs and Sapeurs tended to be elite mavericks, equiping themselves with non standard equipment. These units where really not standardized until the Napoleonic era. By then he merely put into regulation what Sapeurs had previously adapted to their duty.

The other problem I think with the poor documentation is that prior to the 1800's Sapeurs where limited to 2 at most per battalion. Being a front line highly dangerous military profession., not many would aspire to become one.
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eugene
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Localisation : Farbland entre une glacière est un camping car
Date d'inscription : 11/09/2007

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Ven 5 Sep - 8:16

The french soldiers in your image look more like Imperial guard than Lafayette american Contingent. I think it's a misquote.

I'd personnally go for a moustache as a sapeur grenadier and nothing as normal line sapeur. Then if you want to go for a campaign look , grow a rough beard. Since the tradition comes from the sapeurs having no time to shave on campaign.
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gregoire
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Nombre de messages : 55
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Date d'inscription : 04/09/2006

MessageSujet: Re: Help regarding pionners   Ven 5 Sep - 8:33

Under Louis 15 Bearb was forbiden and there were hair (including facial hair regulation) some unit (grenadier de la maison du roi and by extension most grenadier) were ordered to wear mustach but it seems that full bearb was forbiden in the regular army. acording to regulation from the 7 year war in the french army there was no sapeur per say standard soldier were asked to perfom those task.
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